Beeson Podcast, Episode #706 Dr. Jolene Erlacher Date >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. >>David: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I’m David Parks, Professor and Director of Beeson’s Global Center. I’m joined today by Dr. Jolene Erlacher, our keynote speaker for Go Global week. She grew up as a missionary kid and now teaches graduate leadership courses and is a speaker and consultant at Leading Tomorrow Dot Org. Where she works with mission agencies, churches, and other organizations on engaging with the next generation. Thanks for joining us Dr. Erlacher. >>Jolene: Thank you, Dr. Parks. It’s great to be here. >>David: It’s been great having you here. I want to go ahead and jump straight into our first question. Tell us how you came to faith and how the Lord called you to ministry. >>Jolene: I think my story is one that gives me hope as a parent because I grew up in a missionary home. My parents were missionary pastors most of my life since I was about six or seven. I just developed a relationship with the Lord from the very beginning. As I watched my parents serve the Lord I just saw that he was working in their lives and I wanted that in my life. So, I gave my life to the Lord very early on. And really never questioned that that was what I was supposed to do. I had a call to ministry I guess because I just never thought of doing anything else. I saw the impact. They were doing something meaningful. They were doing something important. And I wanted to do that, too, with my life. So, I really never questioned doing anything other than serving the Lord in some capacity and I attribute a lot of that to my parents and their example. >>David: That is an encouraging testimony. [inaudible 00:01:49] to let people know that this is possible too as well. That’s great. Well, how did growing up as an MK shape you? I noticed that you are a proud MK which I think is great. And for those of you who don’t know, that means “Missionary Kid.” How did it shape you and your future ministry? >>Jolene: I feel really blessed because where we grew up, my parents had the ability to really include the whole family in ministry. I can remember hiking out to mountain villages, two hours in the mountains- >>David: Where is this? >>Jolene: So, we were in the Sierra [inaudible 00:02:23] Mountain Range in Eastern Mexico. So, about 70 miles in from the Gulf. I just got to participate in an active way in what God was doing. Dad and mom took us along everywhere we were going. They didn’t see it as their ministry and we were there doing our thing, it was a family ministry. And as a result I got the most amazing experiences as a kid. I mean, sitting around a fire, drinking coffee and eating things that were just harvested out of the field right next to me. It was just the most amazing experience and then being able to see the impact of just what God was doing in people’s lives. In a really present way. And not only just heard about it but got to experience it. So, I think that is part of the reason I never thought of doing anything else. I just wanted to see God working in people’s lives. And I think my parents really involving us as kids in an active way was critical. And sometimes we don’t do that today. We kind of send the kids to do their things versus we were actively involved and it just gave me a hunger to do more in my own life. >>David: That’s really cool. And I feel like my kids kind of missed out on some of that, because we were in Southeast Asia, a very developed country, so coming along with us was not like hiking up the Sierra – it was like, “Hey, come with me to Starbucks.” >>Jolene: Yes. And yet, even simple things. I think about serving coffee at a pastor’s conference. Where my parents would have me show up as an 11 or 12 year old and serve coffee. Which was not the most exciting thing in the world but I got to hear the conversations happening at those tables. So, yeah. There were very glamorous and exciting moments and then there were some not so exciting. But I think they were all valid. >>David: Awesome. Well, tell us about Leading Tomorrow for those of us who are unfamiliar with it. Tell us about it and what you do. >>Jolene: So, a little bit of my story ... I was working at a Christian university. I thought I was going to go overseas and work in education. But while I was at that university I was really seeing the disconnect happening between younger generations and the organizations, the agencies, the churches, the businesses that were hiring them – often our young people are becoming very disengaged with the church, with their calling, as they were involved in internships or actually going into the workplace. And I really wanted to understand that. So, I did my dissertation on Millennials in ministry at the time and just started doing a lot of work around trying to understand what was happening with generations. So shortly after that I married a military man and had to leave that job on campus because we were moving around. And I kept getting people asking me to just come speak on it because I had done research on it, I was passionate about it. And people kept asking me to speak on it. Finally, my husband said, “Why don’t you start your own business?” So, ten years ago actually this year we started the business now that there’s now several of us working together and our whole goal is to help bring awareness of generations and help engage and equip every generation to serve effectively. But specifically we focus on Gen Z right now and Millennials. >>David: All right. Well, that leads to the next set of questions. So, Dr. Erlacher has written a really helpful book on Mobilizing Gen Z: Challenges and Opportunities for the Global Age of Missions. This has been interesting having you come here because normally people’s specialty is something different where I want them in front of the students, of course, and I still want you in front of the students but I’ve felt more so with this one, okay, I need you in front of me. And some of the other leaders on campus here, mobilizing Gen Z. On a personal note, last night we had a dinner conversation with some other leaders on campus – just talking about a whole range of issues with this generation, how to nurture them, grow them, and challenges the opportunities. So, it’s just been really helpful for me and I know other leaders here. So, let’s jump in. What are some unique barriers to missions that are experiences by Gen Z? >>Jolene: Yeah. There’s a number of things in our culture that I think sometimes those of us who are older, we are the leaders, we didn’t experience. And so sometimes they’re almost invisible to us because we’re not seeing them that are significant barriers to the next generation. We talked last night a little bit just about how individualism is such a key component of youth culture right now – and just being who you are, being true and authentic to yourself. And I think sometimes that cultural messaging, even for young people of faith, they can start to hold onto self a little bit too tightly. And what is comfortable for self, what makes self feel good ... I mean, this is part of our culture in general but it’s really emphasized a lot for the younger generations as being important. You need to be true to yourself. So, really helping them kind of process who are they? What is their true identity in Christ? That is where we want to find our self, right? And that’s not a message that’s always getting through. So, just being intentional with that because it’s in that true identity and who we are in Christ that we can find the sense of calling in who God wants us to be in this world today – as we participate in missions or whatever else. I think another barrier is just they’ve grown up in a culture of fear. This is really on us. They did not raise themselves. And as adults whether it’s the helicopter parenting phenomenon, student centered education, I mean, there’s a whole bunch of things that tie into this. Social media where parents and adults are looking at social media, feeling like the world is a scary place. Or a place where we can never make the right decisions for our kids. There’s a lot of things that have contributed to us just telling kids “safety first.” And be safe no matter what. You drive onto any school campus and there’s signs all over – “safety first.” That messaging has really taken hold and this generation feels like they shouldn’t take risks. They shouldn’t do things that are uncertain. They should make sure that they’re taking steps that are very predictable and safe. Often God calls us to do things that require faith. That might not seem safe. And I think that can be another significant barrier for this generation. The third thing I’ll just emphasize because this is so, so critical. Older generations would have made decisions based on facts, logic, and reason. If we felt a call to something – okay, we have that, that’s factual. Now what are the logical steps forward to pursue that? Not that there weren’t elements of faith in that but it was much more straightforward for us. Younger generations are told to make decisions based on emotions, their personal experiences, and their stories. And that ties into that individualism – your emotions are what create your truth. Right? And so emotions are very unpredictable, they fluctuate. And so a major barrier that we’re finding for young people is that they might make a decision to do something that they feel is right in the moment. But when that decision encounters pushback or challenge or struggle or difficulty, negative emotions can cause them to second guess that decision. Negative emotions means something is wrong. And so this is where they really need coaching, mentoring, support. Someone to just listen to them, let them process as they figure out how to navigate those emotions that might contradict the decision that they made. >>David: Yeah, so in your book you’re talking about how they are often waiting for this complete inner sense of peace before they would even move forward in missions. And you recommend to coach them on perhaps taking a couple other action steps. And so I think that was really helpful for me to think about how to respond in ... because the last thing I want to do is say, yeah, don’t wait for peace from the Holy Spirit. >>Jolene: Right. But what else can you do to try to have a sense of this is the direction you’re supposed to go. >>David: I think you said to have them talk to an agency, talk to a pastor. >>Jolene: Yeah. You bring up the coaching, which maybe I’m getting ahead of us here but I really think they have so much information and what coaching does is ... coaching is simply asking them questions and helping them process their next steps, helps them interpret that information. So, by doing things like talking to an agency leader, talking to a pastor, it can be a place where they can process and figure out what are the next steps I need to take versus just reacting. >>David: Yeah. So, what is one ... and we can talk about others if it comes to it ... one particular unique value that Gen Z brings to the table for missions? >>Jolene: So, Gen Z values diversity and openness and learning from each other so highly. They very much value being a part of a whole and they bring their unique selves to it. But they value the unique selves other people bring. So, while there can be downsides to that, there’s also a lot of pluses. I think with this generation they come into a situation ... here’s the positive – we talked last night about tolerance and how tolerance is the highest value of Gen Z. They are there to understand, respect, affirm, accept, celebrate and everyone is equal and valid. That is one of the highest moral values for Gen Z. Which has a lot of downsides. >>David: [inaudible 00:12:09] >>Jolene: And you shouldn’t accept every behavior as acceptable. So, there’s a lot of downsides to that but what it does is it postures Gen Z to be accepting and to celebrate other people who might be different than them. And they’re okay with differences because it’s all be true to your unique and individual self. So, while there are some dangers with that, there’s also this beautiful positive that they come into situations ready to learn, ready to understand other people, ready to engage. So, when you think about cross cultural ministry, they are going into places in a posture to learn, to observe, to connect with people in ways that are meaningful to them as individuals or as a community. And we’re really seeing even as I talk to global leaders in other parts of the world, they are seeing that in Gen Z. When Gen Z’ers come there is this desire to engage them in a way that really honors and respects what is happening maybe before they get to their own personal goals. So, I think older generations, we often came in with our goals. Sometimes we didn’t slow down. We were there to implement those. Which has benefits, too, sometimes. >>David: Numbers, here’s the results we’re looking for. >>Jolene: Exactly. >>David: You start off relational evangelism eventually you can easily forget that last time someone came to Christ it took time. >>Jolene: Right. Exactly. Yes, we’re not always patient with that. >>David: Okay. How can the rest of us, especially those who are listening to this who are in ministry, how can we encourage and nurture a call for missions in Gen Z? >>Jolene: Such a great question. And what’s so interesting to me is I feel like the best answers are the most basic and so obvious that sometimes it’s hard to even believe them. Even in myself. Because what we’re finding with Gen Z is they often have a lot of self doubt. One is that they’re comparing themselves constantly to everyone in the whole world. So, no matter what you do or how well you do it there’s someone who is five years old who has a Tik Tok video of them doing it better than you. So, there’s a sense of I’m constantly comparing myself to others and never measuring up. And that the world is changing so quickly. If I’m not constantly adapting and growing and learning I’m going to get left behind. This fear of mission out is a very real thing. No matter what I’m doing I’m missing out on something else. And so it creates a lot of self doubt. And even as they’re focused on self often we’re focused on self we see where self is lacking, and so there’s just a lot of self doubt with this generation. And what we’re finding is young people who are interested in missions or even considering how God could use them need someone to believe in them and their calling. They need someone to just look them in the eyes and say, “I believe in you. I see God has put this trait in you or this characteristic in you and I believe in you.” And that seems so basic. And they need it repeatedly. So, I recently did a study on 200 young people who are actually interested in missions or pursuing missions. This was one of the key findings. They’re like, “I just need someone to listen to me as I process and I just need someone to believe in me.” And I need to know someone is praying for me. So, even if there’s a young person in our circle, wherever it is, our church, our ministry context, our family – and we see God working in their lives to just be really intentional to say, “I see this in you. I believe God can use you. I’m praying for you. And I’m willing to listen if you want to talk about it.” If you’re wanting to think/discern how God might be talking to you. I think the other thing that’s really helpful is just education and awareness. They have so much information coming at them all the time; trying to narrow down what is important to listen to can be hard. So, even putting information in front of them that shows them this is what God is doing in the world, this is important. Whether it’s exposing them to people in stories, whether it’s just having conversations. I mean I think about even my daughters. We read missionary stories at night, right? Because it’s just keeping that in front of them – this is something God’s doing globally. And that he is going to call you to be a part of it in some way. Praying, sending, going. So, just kind of setting that expectation whatever context we’re in I think becomes really helpful. >>David: Okay. We have something in common in that we’ve also done in addition to the things that are happening here, the sending of missionaries, also a little bit of research on global youth culture. So, what I have found is an overlap with things that are happening here is that youth culture around the world is not just that they are similar – I use the phrase quite often “they have more in common with someone on the other side of the planet than their own parents.” And so 20 years ago even I was noticing that. But what have you noticed about ... and how would you describe the differences between those in other countries and the differences between them and their parents? >>Jolene: Well, one of the things I think is interesting is we often talk about more individualistic societies versus more collectivist societies. And the reality is that since we’ve had these interactive technologies with things like social media, there is an emphasis on self. Very basically the “selfie.” (laughs) But there’s lots of things that emphasize how I create my profile, how I represent myself on these social media feeds, what kinds of things I’m posting, how I’m curating my brand, my online brand, that literally is happening around the world. That is emphasizing individualism. So, I would say in many places we’re seeing this breakdown in collectivist cultures. It is even a more stark generational gap. As younger generations globally are more focused on self and their individualism. Than a lot of cultures in the world. So, that would be one. I think also in this because we’re transmitting values I’m really curious to understand how you saw it playing out 20 years ago. Because I mean so much of what we see right now is with technology but they’re transmitting values like “be true to yourself” which means “I don’t need to respect authority in the same way.” Right? Because I don’t have to go to authorities for information, I don’t have to go to authority for access to stuff, I can access information, access opportunities without authority figures. So, it’s changing how we view authority, how we view respect. Which those values are then globally ... I’ve talked to educators and leaders in a number of countries and they’re like, “Yes, some of these issues that we’re seeing with how respect and authority play out are very similar globally.” So, it’s just that transmission of values and how it’s being facilitated by technology that’s really interesting. >>David: So, what I saw and I led at Center for Youth Ministry in Southeast Asia was that, yes, that was happening. There was clearly more respect for authority than in the West at that point but you could see that it was shifting. But it was also other things like I taught a class on youth culture early on as soon as I got there. So, I didn’t know what they were experiencing. So, I’d teach them something and say, “Hey, do you experience this?” I taught them bulimia and I said, “Do you experience this here?” And they said, “No, that must be a Western thing.” And I’m like, okay, three weeks later the first cases came public. And literally two years later anyone who worked with students had to know about that issue. Same with cutting. So, they did not know that at all before and then suddenly it somehow transferred through the internet to where that became a practice for young women. So, these things ... it’s amazing and sometimes tragic how these things play out. >>Jolene: Yes. When it’s good things we like to see it. Being a part of the global youth culture. But when it’s things that are detrimental it’s sad to see it spreading. >>David: Okay. How can we pray for you and your ministry? >>Jolene: I think just for discernment to know how to equip the organizations, the churches that I work with, to really engage the next generation effectively. All of this is constantly emerging and so just that we would be able to really just altogether equip this generation for what God has called them to. I like to say God really puts in each generation what they need to do his will for their moment in history. And just that myself, our team, as well as the people we work with would have that discernment of what God is doing in this generation. And how to equip them and encourage them. >>David: Awesome. This has been Dr. Jolene Erlacher. Thank you again for joining us. Thank you, listeners, for tuning in. Please pray for the Lord’s work here at Beeson. We’re praying for you. And we say goodbye for now. >>Mark Gignilliat: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast; coming to you from the campus of Samford University. Our theme music is by Advent Birmingham. Our announcer is Mark Gignilliat. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our Producer is Neal Embry. And our show host is Doug Sweeney. 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