Beeson Podcast, Episode #704 Buck Poole, Ryan Martin Date >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. >>Mark: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I’m Mark Gignilliat and I oversee Beeson’s newly minted PhD and Theology for the Church. I’m joined today by two friends of mine Buck Poole and Ryan Martin. These two here are members of our initial cohort in our new program here. We’re so glad that the two of you have decided to join us today. I’m going to just toss you some questions and we’re going to try to get a sense of what our program is about and you all will give us an insider perspective on what we’re doing. Before we start just give me a sense of who you all are in terms of vocation and maybe something about your family life as well. >>Ryan: I’m Ryan Martin. I lead an online school for Greek and Hebrew called Kairos Classroom. We teach Greek and Hebrew classes largely to lay people that are not kind of in a seminary type environment. But also serving seminaries and universities as well, like Beeson. We teach classes to help Beeson students as well. Yeah, so I wake up in the morning and teach Greek! I love it. I’m married to Aubrey for, oh boy, 14 years. And we have two little boys. Micah is five and Hezekiah is three. >>Mark: Yeah, we get to see Ryan and his family go to our church as well. So, we get to see the crew. They’re wonderful. Brother Buck, what do you have to tell us? >>Buck Yes. Absolutely. So, I serve at CrossPoint Church, which is a Baptist Church out in Trussville. There I’m the Missions Minister and Senior Adult Minister. It’s a dual role, quite an interesting combination there. I’ve been there for about seven years now. I started when I started my MDiv at Beeson. Started part time there and then stayed there since. So, I do not teach Greek when I wake up in the morning. That’s probably a good thing for the senior adults at CrossPoint, certainly. I am married to April and we have two kids – eleven year old daughter, Kate, and an eight year old son, Braden. They keep us busy most of the time. >>Mark: Yeah. Love it. I got to see Buck in his context, too, at their church which has been a real blessing. Okay. So, first question – we wrestled here internally as a faculty with this new PhD program for a while. I’ll just be honest, I had some misgivings myself about this program because you want to be careful not to allow some of these new programs to begin to shift the sort of mission and purpose of the institution. And we exist at Beeson, as you both know, you’re both products of our MDiv as well, to train folks for vocational ministry. This PhD that we’ve done here is in some sense a kind of natural extension of what we do best. So, I just want to hear you all talk about what piqued your interest in this program? What drew you toward it? I’m going to dive a little bit deeper into this, the sort of nuts and bolts, in a little bit but just maybe a broader sense of what drew you into this thing? >>Ryan: It did feel like a very Beeson thing, the way that it was described to me. Very broad in good ways, going from a lot of different sub-disciplines or kind of worlds within the theology of biblical studies landscape. I really liked that our seminars, regardless of kind of what our main project is or what our research is in, everybody takes and Old Testament seminary and a New Testament seminar, history and doctrine seminar ... so I knew whatever I was working on that I would have voices from kind of all over that landscape pressuring my project in a really positive ways. But also to the ecclesial bent of what you’re speaking, I mean, I think you all want us to do research that’s useful for the Church; useful for God’s people. And that would be kind of an influence on our decision making and really what things to chase and think through what we want to do. I think those two things together both the breadth and grounded in the Church nature of things were really appealing to me. >>Buck: For me I knew I wanted to do post graduate work and wasn’t quite certain what that looked like. Frankly just looking at some other programs and things just nothing seemed to fit what I was looking for. Perhaps at times some of them seemed too specific, kind of too hyper focused in one particular area that I didn’t necessarily want to be in. And then the flip side is when you certainly started looking into PhD programs I didn’t, my vocational calling I believe is in the church. I don’t believe it’s necessarily in the academy. So, much of that kind of took those programs off the option list. So, I really didn’t know exactly what I was looking for or frankly whether it even existed. And then like manna from Heaven, Beeson just drops this program. No, in all honesty, as the program was rolled out and I began to read the description of what we were hoping to accomplish here it was new and it was meeting all of those things that I was looking for. In some ways, I’ve told my wife, it was almost like it was built for us, for what we were looking for from an institution that I know and love. So, it’s been a beautiful thing. >>Mark: And we probably have the cart a little bit before the horse, so let’s ... we’re playing inside this pool now but for those that don’t know anything about this program, what we’re trying to do, it is a bit different. In the sense of the way in which we have organized our curriculum and in the ways in which we’ve also organized our research seminars which we now have officially called the common. If I were to ask you – just give us your elevator, 30 second, one minute, two minute, whatever it is – try to explain to people what is our curriculum here? What are we trying to do? And then I’ll have some more questions about that as well. >>Buck: I think we’re doing here what Beeson does. What Beeson does well. We’re not ... Beeson was explained to me one time as not trying to force you to know how to land the plane but to teach you somewhat how it’s always been flown in the history of the church. >>Mark: I’ve been here 20 years and never heard that before. >>Buck: Really? >>Mark: That’s fantastic. I need to write it down. >>Buck: Write that down! So, not how to land it but how it’s been flown. >>Mark: And hopefully not to crash it. >>Buck: Hopefully not to crash it, that is certainly a goal. So, I think that’s what we’re trying to accomplish here on a different level of depth. Of understanding how the bible has been read, how it’s been applied, how it’s been used over the history of the church in ways that some have been good, some have not been so good, but giving us these tools to work with that can be useful. >>Ryan: Man, I don’t have much to add. I mean, I think sometimes I feel like I’m having my cake and eating it too in terms of just academic excellence but also grounded in the life and ministry of the Church and in kind of the practical concerns of people following Jesus. I feel like I’m benefitting from both of those approaches in all the best ways. >>Mark: Again, what makes what we’re doing here, at least on the curricular level, a little distinct is normally if you do a sort of traditional PhD you hop into your academic discipline right from the get-go at least on some level and you tend to be focused within a narrow stream of research. And here we require all of you all coming in as a cohort and we really do think of you as a cohort model. So, you’re coming into this together. There’s seven in your incoming cohort and you will take a shared set of courses together. These aren’t meant to be coverage classes. They’re meant to be high level PhD research seminar style courses. You’ve done one on Old Testament already. You’ve done one on New Testament. You’re about to do your first history and doctrine. So, again, this is what we’re trying to shape here is Old Testament/New Testament, two courses in history and doctrine, one in church and world in the 21st century, and then directed readings course that prepares you to defend your dissertations proposal. You’re (Ryan) working in New Testament right? And Buck, you’re working in Church History, mainly 19th century North American Christianity. And yet you both had to sit in an Old Testament class. And you both are about to read Jonathan Edwards together, right, when we get to this class with Dr. Sweeney. So, talk to me a little bit about that. I mean, just the nature of being forced maybe a little bit outside of your comfort zone, trying to think outside the box and the way in which the interdisciplinary dynamics might serve this generalist approach that we’re trying to achieve here. >>Ryan: For sure. I think for me having a general idea of the kind of project I want to do for my dissertation and going into these seminars with reading ... again, I wouldn’t sit down and choose these books for my own personal research project, right? At least not all of them. [crosstalk 00:10:00] I think it’s been very productive and fruitful for me to try to connect. Like, okay, here are the strengths and weaknesses of what I think I’m trying to do. Here are the holes. Here are the places where I know I want to explore. Okay, now how can I put all of that on the conversation list with Jonathan Edwards? With Old Testament hermeneutical traditions? Even the papers that I’ve written so far have really come straight out of that connection, the connection between what I’m interested in and what I want to do and what we’re reading together as a cohort and the conversations that we have in those intense seminars. They’ve already taken my research and my thinking in totally different ways than I would have ever expected. >>Mark: Yeah, that’s great. >>Buck: Certainly, I think Ryan is hitting on it. There’s a level of freedom that has been given in the curriculum where, yes, we’re all reading the same things, we’re all drawing from the same sources through the seminar, but at least with our research after the seminar there’s some freedom there to be able to take the themes that we’ve wrestled with together and then maybe try to apply them or insert them into our own discussion, our own interest and area of research. And to me that’s been a really good thing. >>Mark: If you can kill two birds with one stone that’s kind of an ideal world. That’s not always easy to achieve but if you can do that it’s a blessing. I want to talk a little bit more about the program and then maybe think a little bit about how you might talk to people who are considering a program like this. But let me ask you this question – or frame it this way for you. Some people might look at a PhD in Theology for the Church, it’s clunky, maybe we’ll do better at some point but that’s what we’ve got, as a kind of maybe hyper inflated doctor of ministry. Not to in any way denigrate that degree. And yet that the same time it’s not necessarily a kind of specialized traditional PhD either. But it’s still very much an academic degree. So, talk to us a little bit about sort of the academic workload, the intellectual kind of heavy lifting that you’ve had to do in this program already, how are you navigating that? Because both of you still are vocationally active in your call. So, talk a little bit about the intellectual freight of what’s going on in your world now. >>Buck: I mean, just candidly, it’s the most difficult intellectual exercise I’ve ever been a part of, as it should be. Right? I mean, I think that’s the hope that it would be. And it is. I didn’t know exactly what to expect. My background – I don’t have a family full of PhD’s. We don’t know what to expect here, right? And so you don’t know. Are you walking into kind of a ramped up MDiv or DMin? Is a logical progression? And I would argue from what I’ve seen so far the answer to that is no. It is a completely different ballgame. From an academic rigor, from just depth that you have to bring to the subject, and that’s been hugely beneficial for me already. Because it forces you to expand. It forces you to grow. And it’s forced me to deepen in some areas that I frankly needed to. So, that’s been a good thing. >>Mark: That’s helpful. >>Ryan: I’ve never gotten a DMin but this is not what I would imagine that was like. I think the level, the kinds of sources that we’re engaging and the kinds of ways that we’re being asked to write and think are what I would imagine would be typical for PhD programs across the field. But there is a degree of flexibility I feel like with, I mean, I work full time and it’s a lot but I’m doing it. I’m pulling it off. It ebbs and flows, the workflow. Seminars are coming up, I don’t know if you’ve already said this or not but it’s not a residential program. So, there’s three seminars throughout the year. There’s just all week. All day for a week. >>Mark: Say a little bit more. That might be helpful for people who are learning about it. >>Ryan: Right. So, during these first two years, kind of before we’re full time on the dissertation, we meet three times a year for one week, all day. There’s readings that we do that lead up to that. So, we get a syllabus and we’re reading through books and articles and thesises leading up to the seminar, then we discuss in the seminar, and after the seminar we go and write a paper and do a project. So, that right there times five, I guess, leading up to the directed readings thing. And then two years on the dissertation. >>Mark: And we have all this information for folks. This is available on our website in terms of the details. But yeah. >>Ryan: But it’s been doable. I feel like the type of mentoring, coaching, direction I’ve been getting is just the highest level – we’re learning how to engage [inaudible 00:15:27] and we’re learning how to write well, to research and read well, and to engage the right sources, and think through these things. But at the same time the nature, the freedom that we have ... I think you used that word earlier ... the freedom that we have to work with our own work schedules and life, we can work on these things when we want to and again, I know I’ve said this earlier but it just feels like we’re getting the best of two different worlds. I don’t feel like I’m getting anything less in terms of the academic expectations and intensity in that regard. >>Mark: Okay. This is a curveball question for both of you but especially for Buck because I know you’re a local pastor as we speak. So, heavy lifting kind of intellectual activities here, a lot of reading that might seem somewhat esoteric, lost in the theological abstract landscape, whatever ... so you’re engaging in all of that. And you’re pastoring. So, how do you see those two related to one another and how is this sort of serving your local ministry even now? >>Buck: Certainly. You have to be mindful of that. If I take the conversations that we have in our seminar and I go regurgitate those at the church I’m going to get some funny looks sometimes just because it’s a different way of talking. It is engaging sources that most of our people would not be familiar with, I wasn’t familiar with until I engaged in the program. And so you have to be mindful of that. I think one thing that has been helpful in that regard has been trying to make sure that I maintain a consistent devotional life. Not allowing the academic reading to become my only interaction with the Lord. That I still have a devotional life that allows me to maybe stay a little more engaged in the real world that we live in. And I think that’s been helpful. It’s not always perfect. And I can tell when it’s not. But that’s been a helpful thing for me. >>Mark: That’s good. I think Eugene Peterson said years ago that no one leaves seminary unscathed. So, I think that’s always part of the challenge that we feel. Especially, even for someone like myself who does this for a living – it’s challenging. Okay. So, let’s say that there’s a proverbial listener out there who is either a pastor or maybe even someone coming in with an MDiv and sees their theological vocation primarily in ecclesial terms. What would you tell that person if they’re ... not everyone needs to do this. We say that all the time. You could be a wonderful pastor and never do this, so this is not necessary. But for those that are wired in a certain way, how would you help them sort of discern and think through what this kind of program might offer them? >>Ryan: I mean, the person that you just described? Yes. This is ... >>Mark: Do it! >>Ryan: Yes, do it. Again, that’s not everybody. I think not everybody that conceives of their vocation in that way also has these deep kind of academic type questions or desires to explore these things at this level. But if you do, I just think this is a very special and unique program that not only allows you to do that from your vocational ministry position but values your vocational ministry position. Not as this other thing that’s in the way of your studies but this is the location from which you should engage in your studies. This should drive and direct and kind of pressure your research in ways that are good for you and for your people and for the church. >>Buck: I think one thing that I never wanted to do when I considered any of this type of work was I never wanted to be working just for letters at the end of my name. I didn’t want to be in a position where, hey, we just need these letters. Because to your point, you don’t need that. You can be exactly the pastor that God has called you to be without this level of degree. >>Mark: Or as my kids tell me, “You’re the doctor on the plane that can’t really help anybody.” Let’s keep it in perspective. >>Buck: That’s exactly right. And so with that being said, and with the time commitment involved and the sacrifices that you inevitably have to make when you pursue this level of academic work, you want to make sure that it’s useful. That it’s something that’s actually going to be helpful, that it’s not something you’re putting on a resume, it’s something that is actually building you and growing you to be able to help people. And I think that’s where this program in particular, again with that flexibility and that freedom, allows you to really begin to hone in on what is it? What is it that the Lord has called you to that you can expand upon and grow during this window of time that will not just be for your own professional growth but will be a tool in helping you develop other brothers and sisters in Christ? >>Mark: I’m drawing from memory here so people may have to correct me on this. But if my memory serves me, I think JI Packer for many years for the end of his life emphasized the necessity and the importance of catechesis in the life of the church and felt a deep heaviness that we’re losing that kind of brokering work, in many ways, that a pastor would do in terms of helping people think and reason theologically and engage biblically and shape the way in which they view the world through that Trinitarian lens. So, I think that’s so much about what our hopes are is that you have this kind of brokering [catechal] impulse that’s not locked in kind of esoteric discussions but actually kind of worked out with boots on the ground. Okay. Final question. For those who are listening to this and may be inclined to pray for our new program and maybe inclined to pray for the students that are in it ... you’re our first cohort of seven. We just went through admissions round two. We hope the new cohort will be in, in January, Lord willing. How would you encourage people maybe to pray for this program, pray for the students who are involved in it, be curious to hear your thoughts on that. >>Buck: If you want to pray for us, it’s that we will continue to have the ability to put in the work that is necessary; to do that with joy; to not do that out of obligation but to be able to do it out of a sense of purpose and joy and again that freedom that comes along with that. I think that’s one way you could pray for us. The program in general, it’s an infant now, so just pray that it will continue to develop in the way that the Lord has created it to, right? I think that would be the prayer. >>Ryan: I don’t have much to add to that. I think in any sort of academic context where you’re submitting papers and trying to get good grades and there can be this desire to impress the people around you, to kind of stake out a place for yourself in the academy and I think just even the [inaudible 00:23:00] for this program resists that in some ways that I’m already thankful for. But it’s still hard. You still kind of can be tempted to write about what’s the newest exciting thing that will get me the right kind of attention that I want? How can I make my own mark on the academy in this way or that? And that’s not all bad. By any stretch. But I think this program is uniquely set up to kind of guide us into the guild in such a way that leaves our souls intact. Helps us to see the eternal value of what we’re doing and to realize this is not for us, this is for the Lord and for His Church. Yeah, that’s hard. So, I think pray for our hearts and for our motivations and that these academic and research endeavors will draw us closer to the Lord and closer to our church communities rather than the wedge that I think gets driven sometimes. >>Mark: That’s a good word. Paul House, who is my erstwhile colleague and your erstwhile professor, recently retired. I’ll never forget one day he passed me in the hallway. I think I had just got some sort of promotion or something around here and he said, “Yes, yes, I remember the day when it dawned on me that I was no longer a young promising scholar.” (laughter) Time has a way of humbling us I think on these kinds of things and keeping perspective. Fellows, what a delight. Thank you for taking the time to share your perspective. And what the Lord is doing in your lives and your families, your vocation here in this context with us. Listeners, this has been Buck Poole and Ryan Martin. Thank you for joining us and thank you listeners for tuning in. Please pray for the Lord’s work here at Beeson. And we’re praying for you and for now we say goodbye. >>Mark Gignilliat: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast; coming to you from the campus of Samford University. Our theme music is by Advent Birmingham. Our announcer is Mark Gignilliat. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our Producer is Neal Embry. And our show host is Doug Sweeney. For more episodes and to subscribe, visit www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast. You can also find the Beeson Podcast on iTunes, YouTube, and Spotify.